Breaking down the positions
Posted by mattsmith on 4:44pm, Wednesday October 28th 2009
Ryan Howard OVER Mark Teixeira
I understand Tex has the huge contract and he’s probably the best defensive first baseman in all the land. Oh, and he can murder the baseball…
Still, I’d take Ryan’s bat over his. Howard has proven time and again that he is a lethal force that can’t be messed with. He’s a superstar.
Chase Utley OVER Robinson Cano
OK, so maybe Chase hasn’t been the same player since, well, May 2008. That’s cool. I think he’s playing with an injury again, but we won’t know for sure until after the postseason.
I love what Cano brings and he has a bright future. But, by and large, Utley has been the best second baseman in the league since 2007. I know he’s struggle,d but he’s a gamer. Gotta love his attitude.
Jimmy Rollins OVER Derek Jeter
yeah, I know Jeter is the son of Jesus Christ and all, but I’ll take J-Roll any day. Sounds crazy considering he’s nowhere near as consistent with the bat as Jeter, but Jimmy has a flare for the dramatic. He comes through when you need him to. He’ll aggravate you, but he always makes up for it. Not to mention, he’s the best defensive shortstop in baseball. Period.
A-Rod OVER Pedro Feliz
Uhh, yeah, this is a no-brainer. I like A-Rod as a player. He’s a fraud in some ways, you know, because of that steriod thing… but he’s still one of the best of the game regardless
LF Raul Ibanez OVER Johnny Damon
They’re both old, but Ibanez has more potential… if that makes sense.
Shane Victorino OVER Melky Cabrera
Victorino is the best center fielder in the NL, in my opinion. Love him or hate him, he’s a stud. Melky reminds me of a Marlon Byrd type, but I may be wrong
Jayson Werth OVER Nick Swisher
Not even a debate. I would like to punch Swisher in his nose. He just has that look to him…
Carlos Ruiz OVER Jorge Posada
Ruiz has established himself as one of the best all-around catchers in the game. I respect Posada, but at this point in his career, I think he’s a step or two behind his prime.
well, i may have started this thread earlier..
I will say I can’t disagree with most of this… I think Howard / Teix is a push if anything, you can make great arguments for either.
I guess you can say the same for Rollins and Jeter… I just don’t see how you give the edge to Rollins, especially this year. Jeter is SOLID Defensively (it pains me to say that), but yes Rollins is better.. and you just can’t give the edge to Rollins with one big hit this year, over 13 years of big playoff hits, even when the Yanks couldnt get out of the first round, he was solid.. so again, we could argue all day and it pains me to have this argument as a met fan..but its a push at best IMHO
I agree on everything else, I want to put an asterisk that Victorino was easily the best CF in the NL THIS YEAR… a healthy Beltran is the only player who gives him a run, I think you must admit that. Melky, I have no idea how that guy is in the majors..and playign for the Yankees half the time…
I hate both Werth and Swisher, I agree with Werth > Swisher, but can I punch them both?? LOL
Ruiz and his MUCH better defense and his amazing play in October make this the right choice as well, Posada being horrendous behind the plate take away anything he adds with his bat..
all in all, we agree more than disagree…except I just wish they would cancel the 2009 world series
how can you support guys like reyes and beltran(who by the way doesnt give a shit about any thing not named carlos beltran), and dislike a class act like werth. good, hard working, stud. period
Maybe it’s because I’ve been following Jimmy since he was a 20-year-old, I don’t know. I think I’ve wanted to seriously injure him more times than love him, lol, but I’d still take him over a declining Jeter. I really respect the hell out of Jeter, but I guess I’m bias to J-Roll.
Yeah, Beltran is very good, but will he ever be healthy again?? I don’t know. I question his desire a little bit. I don’t think he’s overrated, but I think his best years are behind him. Maybe I’m dead wrong, who knows.
Oh, and when your team wins a World Series, you tend to love them all forever… Brad Lidge and Cole Hamels included!
LoL, so your basically saying your opinion is slanted toward the Phillies hence you can’t have an impartial opinion as to who gets the edge.
So logic dictates that of course you will side with your Phillies so why even do a comparison to begin with.
Fair enough
Oh for the record just looking at it from this year’s point of view I go as follows:
1B Howard/Texirera edge: even
2B Cano/Utley edge: Yankees
SS Rollins/Jeter edge: Yankees
3B AROD/Feliz edge: Yankees
C Ruiz/Posada edge: Yankees
CF Victorino/Cabrera edge: Phillies
RF Werth/Swisher edge: Phillies
LF Ibanez/Damon edge: Phillies
SP Lee/Sabathia edge: even
SP Burnett/Martinez edge: even
SP Pettite/Hamels edge: Yankees
MR edge: even
CL Rivera/Lidge edge: Yankees
MGR Manuel/Girardi edge: Phillies
My 2 pennies worth :p
hAHA!
Game 1 is in the books. How bad do my comparisons look right now? I say “my guys” stepped up and produced, therefore making them better.
For example…Utley OVER Cano. Utley had two HRs. Howard? Two big hits.
One of these days people outside of the Philadelphia area will understand and APPRECIATE just how good this team is. One day.
LoL I’m sure your comparisons to go along with all our comparisons were just that, a comparison. You would agree no one wins on paper which is all that was.
Having said that I would not be too quick to say “HAHA”.
Game 1 was exactly what was expected 2 great starters pitching a pitchers duel with Lee outlasting CC “this time”.
I’d say both starters pitched a great game.
The deciding factor once again was the pen. The Yanks pen was exposed tonight and Lee spared the Phillies from having to expose theirs.
Game 2 may be an offensive slugfest as both starters have shown themselves to have flaws in their game and it may just come down to one heads up play or one blunder that will decide the outcome.
Or maybe not.
Expect the same throughout this series. The key is jumping on Burrnett tonight. And Burnett is EXACTLY the kind of pitcher they kill.
Kudos to Burnett. He pitched a helluva a game.
“Victorino is the best center fielder in the NL”
So how do you measure who is the best center fielder in the NL again?
Because if I am not mistaken
Beltran hits for more power
Beltran drives in more runs
Beltran had 3 consecutive 100 rbi seasons as a Met coming into 2009 “when he got hurt”
Beltran scores more runs
Beltran walks more
Beltran has more gold gloves. 3 Gold Gloves 2006,2007,2008 coming into 2009 “when he got hurt”
Beltran has more silver sluggers 2 – 2006,2007
I am just saying because I was under the impression that counted for something.
maybe because your comparisons have nothing to do with basically the last two seasons… all we can say for that is
Beltran boo’d every other game for lack of effort
The guy shows no heart and in the last two years this is a no brainer.
Wait so your telling me he is booed every other game?
I’d say you are well misinformed on that point.
The no heart statement is a matter of opinion.
On Heart alone I’d say Jeter is better than Rollins but I’m sure Matt would disagree so Heart again is opinion on the field Beltran is now and has been since coming to the NL the best CenterFielder in the NL.
The last 2 years as in 2008, 2009? OK so let’s see
2008
Beltran
161 G
ab 606
116 R
172 H
40 2B
27 HR
112 RBI
25 SB
92 BB
96 SO
.284 BA
.376 OBP
.500 SLG
Victorino
146 G
570 AB
102 R
167 H
30 2B
14 HR
58 RBI
36 SB
45 BB
69 SO
.293 BA
.352 OBP
.447 SLG
I will give you obviously 2009 since Beltran was hurt and on dl most of year.
So Victorino is better because of what again? Because of 2009?
Clearly Beltran is the better Center Fielder.
Beltran is good, but I’d take Vic any day over anyone.
Beltra, IMO, is on decline. Let’s see if he can stay healthy next year.
It’s Victorino 1, Beltran 2 in the NL among center fielders.
Not to mention, I don’t think Beltran is much of a winner. He reminds me too much of Bobby Abreu – a guy who will produce but will never, ever carry a team to a championship.
Vic’s a winner.
WAIT….
I’ll take Michael Bourn over Beltran.
So, that would make Beltran, what, the third best CF?
Stop comparing stats, man. It’s not all about stats.
Sheesh.
Beltran needs to show me he can stay healthy and help guide his team to a World Series before he gets No. 1 consideration.
AHH ok so let me see your saying Victorino is better since 2008 on because he won a world series and Beltran hasn’t.
Your also saying because he was injured in 2009 that now makes Victorino better since you feel Beltran is now on the decline.
OK then how is Rollins better than Jeter. Jeter is the poster child for a winner.
Yet you put Rollins over Jeter.
You can’t have it both ways.
Being the best Center Fielder has nothing to do with winning a World Series.
Ryne Sandberg was arguably the best 2nd baseman in his time and never won a world series.
Stop counting stats indeed what do you want to use I believe was my 1st question?
I am still waiting is it rings
I s it heart?
Does Carlos Beltran make his teammates better? Can you answer that question?
Because Victorino does. He’s a sparkplug. He’s an energizer. He steals bases. He makes game-saving catches. He’s a VOCAL leader.
Is Beltran a leader? Hmm…
The “intangibles” make him a better player — by far, in fact.. That’s not to say Beltran can’t come back and have a MONSTER year in 2010, because he definitely can.
I thought Mets fans had a love him/hate him type relationship with Beltran? Wasn’t this guy Roberto Alomar-esque a few years back?
Your problem is you flip flop in one sentence you say Victorino is better than Beltran because he makes his team better and beltran doesn’t. Then you turn around and refuse to apply the same logic to Jeter over Rollins.
The same things you use to describe to make your argument regarding Victorino is why then Jeter is better than Rollins but you refuse to see that.
Mind you I have no love for either team I am simply stating a truth when it comes to Jeter a 1st ballot hall of famer.
The purpose of my original post was NOT to point out who I think is better.
I will end the discussion on that note because, frankly, I don’t want to waste anymore time on this topic.
I agree Victorino is a very good center fielder he is a winner by my standards hands down.
What I say is what standard do you want to measure who is the best because if it is not stats and it is rings plays on the filed or heart.
Then how can you say Rollins has an edge over Jeter?
Jeter has him beat hands down.
I’m not discounting Derek Jeter. He’s a GREAT player. But, this is my PERSONAL PREFERENCE. In a lot of ways, Rollins and Jeter are a lot alike. But, right here and right now, I’ll take Jimmy. He’s more of the total package.
Guys, this is basically a Phillies fans opinion on stuff. When you’re going good, you’re going good. Life is good.
It’s not about WHO IS BETTER, it’s about who I would prefer.
I’d take Victorino over Beltran. I’d take Jimmy over Jeter. That’s that. Doesn’t make me right or wrong. It’s just an opinion.
Look at it this way: If I were starting a franchise tomorrow, do I take 35-year-old Jeter or 30-year-old Rollins. Tough one, but because Rollins can do so many things well, I’ll take him.
Victorino over Beltran. Vic is younger and Beltran is coming off an injury-plagued season. Both good players, but Vic’s value/potential is much higher.
Again… it’s not all about stats. There’s other factors.
“Look at it this way: If I were starting a franchise tomorrow, do I take 35-year-old Jeter or 30-year-old Rollins. Tough one, but because Rollins can do so many things well, I’ll take him.”
Yea but that is not the debate the debate is right now who had the edge.
According to what are your standards then Jeter should be better than Rollins but you do not want to apply it.
It’s ok to be a philly guy but then why bother doing a position by position breakdown? Just say your better at every position if you are going to be just in favor of your team?
Why debate when fangraphs has done the job for us:
WAR
C – Posada 4.0, Ruiz 2.2
1B – Teixeira 5.2, Howard 4.9
2B – Utley 7.7, Cano 4.3
SS – Jeter 7.4, Rollins 2.4
3B – A-Rod 4.6, Feliz 1.2
RF – Werth 4.7, Swisher 3.7
CF – Victorino 3.4, Cabrera 1.6
LF – Ibanez 4.1, Damon 2.8
Yankees 4, Phillies 4
As a team, Yankees 38.3 and Phillies 27.7
and as we saw last night, stats don’t mean shit…
p.s. wtf is this crap and what does it consider
Past 3 years,
Beltran 14.5, Victorino 10.4
And that’s with Beltran’s 2009 season only 2.9 WAR.
wow matt, that’s a pretty fair analysis. I’m actually surprised you didn’t rate Feliz over A-Rod
it might not be “fair” but if I’m putting together a World Series team, I’ll take most of my guys over their guys, you know? It’s all opinion.
Oh and by the way guys, that’s for engaging in a discussion over here at Phillies Phandom. We’re not used to this kind of stuff lol.
Hey, bring the whole Mets army, we’ll take ‘em all on
LoL Matt for the 1st time your Phillie Phandom has shown to where all reason is left out of the discussion.
I will leave it as your in the midst of winning another ring so it is hard for you to see through your Phillie colored glasses right now and will leave it at that LoL.